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El Forum

[eluser]n0xie[/eluser]
[quote author="viisik" date="1262746413"]? where is lots of Cake code available [/quote]
Cake Bakery

[quote author="viisik" date="1262746413"]
- Zend: So modular that it gets annoying. It's far too 'complex' (as in too many options available which make it complicated, not as in difficult) for any sane person to quickly build something. Yes it is modular so very handy for big projects, but again the types of projects we do, CI is good enough.

- can you explain what do you possibly mean by Zend being very handy for big projects - what is the criteria of a big project - suitable for Zend[/quote]
Because Zend is very modular and loosely coupled, it's very resistant against breakage i.e. when you break something somewhere, only that part doesn't work, the rest of your code will still work, whilst in frameworks which are tightly coupled, if you break one thing, the entire application breaks.

To achieve this, Zend uses very verbose code. It's almost like doing Java in PHP. So you have to write a lot of code to do basic stuff. It is the 'proper enterprise' way of coding, but seriously, the power of PHP is that you can sometimes just work around everything and just hack away ;-)

El Forum

[eluser]mcr_rm[/eluser]
Ello guys, first post and everything.

Just joined up because Framework comparison in PHP is a very valid discussion and something i have spent the last year getting into.

For me personally I choose Code Igniter the majority of the time as it is quicker to develop with because of my knowledge of using it.

However for enterprise or larger scale projects I have had to start using Zend. I do work for some quite major clients and there are now a number specifying the use of Zend framework. The main reasons for this are it's modular nature as mentioned above and the ability to split the database abstraction etc and use other solutions or even simply use elements of the Zend library in a larger solution.

I love code igniter, the community definately helped in my early days of getting attuned to it (by searching the forums) and the documentation is very thorough.

And I think the definition of enterprise etc is when you start dealing with Java driven database ORM and multi levelled server stacks for major blue chip clients.

Zend has a tougher learning curve and I tackled it after CI but once you get with it you realise you can use bits of it for smaller projects or full blown if you wish.

El Forum

[eluser]Benjamin Midget[/eluser]
Frankly, I only use CI to maintain CI sites that I don't have time to port to Kohana.

Here are some Kohana tibits:

* Kohana was originally a fork of CI but is completely rewritten at this point. It's brand of MVC design philosohpy is still based on CI, thus learning Kohana from CI is not difficult. Jumping head-first into Kohana is an admittedly overwhelming thing because of it's unperfect docs

* To me Kohana feels like the obvious step from CI. Find yourself thinking "I wish CI would let me..." and finding workarounds inside CI? Enter Kohana. It is a more straightforward way of programming, because, frankly, we are beyond dancing around php4. And yes, fully working in php 5 makes a difference.

* Kohana community is growing and very knowledgeable. The forum is good, but I admin CI's forum is one of the best out there. Still, I can get an answer quicker on kohana's irc channel than from anyone at CI when needed.


I used to be a huge fanboy of CI--I still respect it as the second best framework available--but after working with Kohana, going back feels archaic.

There are other frameworks, but to me Kohana and CI are the only ones that aren't bloated and work the way I want to (Props to Ellis Labs in the highest order for coming up with the design pattern in the first place). Kohana wins on every single level for experienced programmers.

Give it a try, mess around with Kohana's 2.3.4 (stable) build and install the Formo module and mess around with those a bit. I betcha you'll feel like you've entered heaven.

El Forum

[eluser]CI2RULZ[/eluser]
I have nothing against Kohana, but a solely community based project (versus a company & community based project) is actually a turn off to me. A company has some vested interest in success versus a community only driven project which is all about helping themselves debug a feature they think would be cool to framework (in my humble opinion). In the case of CI, EL has A LOT of interest since their commercial CMS is now being built on it. The financials of their company partially ride on the back of CI... that's powerful stuff.

Who knows what the future will hold, but in my opinion I think CI and ZF will remain in the limelight for years. Other frameworks will come and go, getting hot for a year or two then fizzle, but without a large movement of people in total disgust of the major players, I don't see them lasting over the long haul. Sure, open source in general has been a community based movement that's worked, but that's because of the level of total disgust with microsoft in general, which can not be said for companies within the open source community.

Maybe I look at things differently, but job security, rapid development methods (which doesn't come as much from technology as it does familiarity in my experience), and marketable skill sets are important to make this a life long career. I don't have the time to learn 5, 10, or maybe more frameworks over that time, and ultimately is not beneficial to my goals compared to mastering one or two that serve my needs for many years. Because if I'm going to waste that much time relearning skill sets, I might as well jump ship now and learn C#.NET and Sharepoint and sit back at a ridiculously high paying corporate job and be done with it. I'll stare at a wall all day and be subjected to permanent geekhood... but I'll be rich. We PHPers open source it because we love developing great websites for clients. Open source is all about client based work, so high turn around is the key to our success.

Ultimately OP, try both frameworks and pull the trigger. At the end of the day, it's just code, and no one said you had to use a framework at all. 8-/ Back before .NET came out and PHPers got a little crazy, starting with an inferiority complex arising, and ending with every coder with a website releasing some brand of framework to shut their MS buddys pie hole, we used contexual php and it worked just fine. Figure out the fastest way to develop websites, no matter what method that is, and you can actually make a great living in the open source world.
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