separating content from pages.

[eluser]grahoom[/eluser]
Hello,

I've recently been building an application in CI that has meant that I have built the beginnings of a CMS. At present I have separated the content from pages. So effectively when you add a new page to the application you can then allocated existing content to that page, or create new content and allocate it to the page. So effectively you have content "blocks" that are linked to a page (or pages) that they appear in.

From a lot of CMS's I've used - there seems to be a definite strong link with the content and a page, do people think that it could be detrimental to have such a separation ?

Personally, I feel that as long as the UI for the administration aspect of the CMS is clear, so that a user can see easily what content is on a page, then the separation of content and pages isn't going to be a problem.

would be interested in any thoughts, problems people might have.

cheers

[eluser]simshaun[/eluser]
Well, I've developed customized CMS solutions for several medium-sized corporations.
One thing I can tell you, that I've found works best, is to follow the KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) method.

Chances are, the majority of pages on a website don't contain the same content.
Therefore, we can conclude that it's illogical to have the separation unless a majority of pages will utilize the same content.

Personally, I would not want to go to 2 sections of the admin to accomplish 1 task.
I highly doubt my customers would like it or even understand it.

I'm not trying to discourage you, as I can think of a few instances that it might come in handy, but for most people it just means more work. One possible solution is to allow the page to be created while creating the content.

[eluser]grahoom[/eluser]
[quote author="simshaun" date="1227566624"]Well, I've developed customized CMS solutions for several medium-sized corporations.
One thing I can tell you, that I've found works best, is to follow the KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) method.

Chances are, the majority of pages on a website don't contain the same content.
Therefore, we can conclude that it's illogical to have the separation unless a majority of pages will utilize the same content.

Personally, I would not want to go to 2 sections of the admin to accomplish 1 task.
I highly doubt my customers would like it or even understand it.
[/quote]

cheers for the input.

From developing a multiple of web-sites, and using quite a few different CMS's - I have quite often come across the problem of having to use the same content on multiple pages.

And regarding the second point, this is what I meant about the administration UI needs to be spot on so that the user doesn't get confused (or need to go to two sections to accomplish one task)

for example, if when you edit a page it displays all the content that is on that page ( the content blocks) and allows you to edit these as they appear on the page.

or go to a separate section to edit individual content as and when needed.

I am fully aware of the possibilities that might arise from added complexity of separating content from pages, but I think that if a UI was created that was from this view point then there is the possibility of allowing for an additional feature that I feel might be of use to the user; and if done correctly won't be any more complicated / confusing than having the model of one content one page.

Or I might just be doing something that is pointless (although from my experience there has been plenty of situations where the same content is needed to appear on multiple pages).

[eluser]simshaun[/eluser]
Why not just make it an include-able block system?

Pages function like normal, where a user types out copy like normal. If there is a common block of content, you click an "Insert Block" button.

Think of it as Pages consist of their own text + blocks, rather than Pages consist of blocks.

[eluser]grahoom[/eluser]
[quote author="simshaun" date="1227568589"]Why not just make it an include-able block system?

Pages function like normal, where a user types out copy like normal. If there is a common block of content, you click an "Insert Block" button.

Think of it as Pages consist of their own text + blocks, rather than Pages consist of blocks.[/quote]

Quite like this idea, but If you're going to have the block - as in the insert block idea, why not just have pages and blocks?

Otherwise you're going down the route of having pages, that have their own text and then blocks in that - I don't see why you can't have just blocks that are associated to a page.

Block has a one to many relationship to a Page. Granted the majority of the time there might only be a one to one relationship, but there are cases were this relationship isn't the case.

I think the KEY here would be how the UI deals with it.

[eluser]simshaun[/eluser]
I thought that was the idea already, to have them separate.

I wasn't saying to have a block only for one page.. that kinda defeats the purpose.

You manage blocks from one tab, pages from another.

In the page editor, you should be able to insert a block (not create one).

[eluser]grahoom[/eluser]
[quote author="simshaun" date="1227569559"]I thought that was the idea already, to have them separate.

I wasn't saying to have a block only for one page.. that kinda defeats the purpose.

You manage blocks from one tab, pages from another.

In the page editor, you should be able to insert a block (not create one).[/quote]

ah you see - this is where we differ on this, the way I am seeing this is that if you are on a page then any content that is associated to that page is visible and editable as in a wysiwyg manner - if you want to add content you can then add the desired content (be that already created and stored content or new content block).

it might be that each page only uses one content block and the user only ever edits a content block via the page it is associated with - that's fine, but this also allows for the idea of one content block being associated with multiple pages.

[eluser]simshaun[/eluser]
If I understand your idea correctly, then how are you going to distinguish between multiple content blocks on a single page, and how will you give them names so they can be inserted on other pages?

Also, I am against restricting the user to only editing a content block from the page it was first associated with. By doing so, you are most likely hindering usability tenfold. How will the user know where to go to edit a specific block?

[eluser]grahoom[/eluser]
[quote author="simshaun" date="1227571757"]

1 ) If I understand your idea correctly, then how are you going to distinguish between multiple content blocks on a single page, and how will you give them names so they can be inserted on other pages?

2 )Also, I am against restricting the user to only editing a content block from the page it was first associated with. By doing so, you are most likely hindering usability tenfold. How will the user know where to go to edit a specific block?[/quote]

1 ) this can be done via the UI , obviously I've yet to design this yet, but if a content block was displayed in a way so that you could see the boundaries of that block then the user would be able to edit each block as they please. As for giving them a name, this cn also be done via the UI - if a block is clicked to edit, then somewhere on the UI there could be editable form fields for things like content block name etc.

2) I agree, that is why I think if a content block is presented in any page then it should be editable, and also it should be editable seperate from the pages that it might be associated with. Ofcourse this would require some sort of notification to warn the user that the block is used (if it is used) over multiple pages.

Thanks for the feedback simshaun it's very helpful to bounce this idea off of someone.

[eluser]rogierb[/eluser]
If you are going to use blocks, make sure they can be multilingual. The most annoying thing about most CMS is their support for more then one language. When using blocks, this shouldn't be to difficult. In fact, a lot easier then when just using pages.