Something bad about CI

[eluser]gvillavizar[/eluser]
This is no flamming, it's just that it's so easy to set up a website using it, that we somehow lose what we learn by doing it manually. Having to connect to a DB, writing queries manually, etc.

If we keep using just CI for everything, we will eventually forgot how to do it the old way.

I love CI, but I will need to keep on doing things the old way to ensure I will not forgot.

[eluser]Developer13[/eluser]
Whether or not you keep up with how things are done at the lower level isn't necessarily the fault or responsibility of the framework, it's yours.

Plus, isn't that what Google is for?

[eluser]Dam1an[/eluser]
I see where you're coming from, but don't neceserily think its a bad thing
Programming langauges as a whole (as well as frameowkrs) continually move on to ahigher level
We acheive more by writting less etc

I think you only really need to know low level stuff if you're building the next generation of framework, take C as an example, hardly anyone uses it for anything new these days (unless you need something low level/maximum performanc), most desktop applications are done in C++ or C#

And I also have to Google how to do an SQL query in PHP lol

[eluser]Daniel Moore[/eluser]
Ok, this is going to open up a rant, so if you don't want to hear it, skip this post.

You guys make me feel old. I remember learning C so I wouldn't have to code everything in assembler. I also remember when I started forgetting how to do assembler and suddenly realized it might be a mistake to not keep up with it. Then I came to my senses and realized, "Why should I keep doing assembler if I can get away with doing it all in C?"

I eventually moved on to use C++ Builder for rapid application development, and I never did miss the old way of doing things.

The key to successful programming isn't knowing how to do every minute command of the language, it's knowing how to put together blocks of code that you've developed over the years and seamlessly stitch them together to make an application as if they were designed to be that way (and if you design them right to start with, they are). When it comes to details of the language, make sure you always have a good reference book handy in case you forget how to format an "if" statement for yourself, or something crazy like that. Even the best of us have days where we momentarily forget the most basic things, and if you haven't yet, wait until you get to be my age.

If you can lay out a program in a flowchart or pseudocode, then a good programmer should be able to take that and write it in any programming language as long as they have access to that language's reference manual. Basically all languages are the same at some level, you just have to learn the syntax and grammar. A good coder will be a good coder in any language, using any platform.

[eluser]Developer13[/eluser]
Nicely put, Daniel. I can't say I disagree with anything you said - very valid points indeed!

PHP, in essence, is a framework (at least as Rasmus puts it)... so why not go back to the underlying components -- and then back and back and back until you're at the ones and zeros?

[eluser]oddman[/eluser]
[quote author="Dam1an" date="1240365600"]I see where you're coming from, but don't neceserily think its a bad thing
Programming langauges as a whole (as well as frameowkrs) continually move on to ahigher level
We acheive more by writting less etc

I think you only really need to know low level stuff if you're building the next generation of framework, take C as an example, hardly anyone uses it for anything new these days (unless you need something low level/maximum performanc), most desktop applications are done in C++ or C#

And I also have to Google how to do an SQL query in PHP lol[/quote]

He's not really talking that low-level - but he is absolutely right. Knowing how to continue doing SQL statements, connecting to a database.etc. is an absolutely must - especially if you want to make it somewhere as a web developer. Not all firms are going to use a particular framework, some jobs may require you to actually develop your own, or interfacing between different libraries/frameworks.etc.

I'm with the author 100% on this. A framework is very different from a higher-level language. You SHOULD know (and continue to know) what's going on in the background. Also, depending on frameworks/libraries can result in false positives.

[eluser]Crimp[/eluser]
I disagree.

Lower-level knowledge can be necessary, but given the span one is increasingly asked to absorb, it becomes more and more impossible to maintain.

Take, for example, jQuery. One could spend one's entire life figuring out the new and old cross-browser quirks of JavaScript or use a framework that allows you to get the job done in one line and move on.

With knowledge in the IT-industry always being a moving target, it increasingly requires shortcuts to stay effective and not get bogged down in complex and frustrating details of little or no practical consequence.

I think, as a sidenote, this is partly why the iPhone has taken off in such a big way among all kinds of developers; the confines of what you need to know and test on are clearly defined. It can be a pure joy to work like that when there's a jungle of languages and devices out there.

The luxury of taking on everything one perhaps "should" know is quite rare after leaving school.

[eluser]oddman[/eluser]
[quote author="Crimp" date="1240404460"]Lower-level knowledge can be necessary, but given the span one is increasingly asked to absorb, it becomes more and more impossible to maintain.[/quote]

Absolutely - but again, there is a difference between lower-level languages - and frameworks.

Take, for example, jQuery. One could spend one's entire life figuring out the new and old cross-browser quirks of JavaScript or use a framework that allows you to get the job done in one line and move on.

On this point, I agree - but this is using an extreme. Having to cater for a plethora of different browsers and having that all compiled into a framework is great. That said, I don't think it's worth using a framework like jQuery if all you're doing is form validation, that's overkill.

With knowledge in the IT-industry always being a moving target, it increasingly requires shortcuts to stay effective and not get bogged down in complex and frustrating details of little or no practical consequence.

Shortcuts!? I hope you mean in the good sense I agree that as programming industrializes, we need faster and quicker ways of doing things, but I also believe you do need an understanding of various aspects of development. If you want to stay as a codemonkey, and just pump out the same stuff over and over, then no, you don't need to know much more. If however, you're looking to lead software development and/or become an architect of sorts - then just knowing the highest level language isn't going to cut it.

I think, as a sidenote, this is partly why the iPhone has taken off in such a big way among all kinds of developers; the confines of what you need to know and test on are clearly defined. It can be a pure joy to work like that when there's a jungle of languages and devices out there.

Absolutely. But iPhone development doesn't work on other phones, so although iPhone is (i don't have stats here) possibly the market leader, by developing specifically for it - you're basically outlawing all other phones and platforms. If you did this in the web industry, you'd be labelled as a fool.

The luxury of taking on everything one perhaps "should" know is quite rare after leaving school.

I agree with this as well. I think it's more about what you should know in context. You can use an MVC framework to do all sorts of things, and it's mostly good for just pumping out websites. But think beyond that - MVC isn't the one-size-fits-all, so you simply have to understand fundamentals.

You can jump into jQuery and have a merry old time, but you'll make the most out of it if you actually understand what you're writing and how it affects users, browsers, and future development requirements.

[eluser]gyo[/eluser]
@gvillavizar: it's all up to you to forget something or not. Thanks god I don't have to manage all that code anymore.

[eluser]Crimp[/eluser]
How's that chip-assembly coming along, oddman? Still collecting sand? ;-)

Since you're also on the forum for a PHP framework, it helps to keep things in perspective.

If someone successfully builds beauitiful web sites with CI, they are no more a code monkey than anyone else outside of Intel, if you dig deep enough with that argument. Different jobs simply require different skills. That's why they are different jobs.

We don't all have to be linguists with a specialty in 17th century binary languages to type letters and numbers on a computer.

I am not advocating idiocy, simply pointing out to all CI newbies that you do not need contributor credit on new versions of PHP 6 to work and play with enjoyment and success.