GoPHP5

[eluser]ScottR[/eluser]
I know this has been said time and time again - but I thought I would dig up this argument once more after I saw this newly launched website:

http://gophp5.org

Code Igniter needs to dump PHP4 support totally. It just pains me to see all the overhead and code hacks in place needed to maintain this compatibility. With many other frameworks and code bases pledging PHP 5.2 only versions in the next year, it is time CI made the same step.

Now I know you will say what about all the PHP 4 users, whose hosts don't support PHP 5. Well if they start losing customers because they don't support it, I can guarantee that will quickly change, but this won't happen as long as frameworks such as CI continue to allow its use.

[eluser]mumpitzmann[/eluser]
You have my support.

I sincerly hope that the next major release of CI will dump the PHP4 support. So everybody who still has a PHP4-only-Server can use the "old" CI and the rest is able to use the whole benefits of the "new" CI

[eluser]esra[/eluser]
[quote author="ScottR" date="1183721963"]Now I know you will say what about all the PHP 4 users, whose hosts don't support PHP 5. Well if they start losing customers because they don't support it, I can guarantee that will quickly change, but this won't happen as long as frameworks such as CI continue to allow its use.[/quote]

Impossible to gaurantee based on the simple fact that they won't lose customers because of the glut of popular PHP4 open source applications bundled with hosting packages. Where are the PHP5 killer applications to encourage such a change and replace what they currently market with their hosting packages? Unfortunately, a switch to PHP5 is a gamble at this point, especially if you have plans to market an application commercially or desire widespread open source adoption of an application.

This is a vicious circle because one cannot seriously develop open source PHP5 applications to fill the void until suitable PHP5 frameworks exist to use as the foundation for those applications or one develops a suitable framework on their own. Why don't those PHP5 frameworks exist now, given the long lead time since PHP5 was released? Symfony and Zend really don't impress me as a OOP development foundation to base my future projects. I see some innovation in Zend, and Symfony seems more of a hodge podge of existing libraries (Mojavi, bits of Prado [Wei's i18n solution] and such).

Even if hosts make the switch to PHP5, CodeIgniter applications will continue to run in that environment. With an increase in the use of design patterns in PHP4-based CI applications and the use of Web 2.0 techniques, version 4 still has a lot of mileage left, at least from a transitional point of view--using CI is a safe solution and wise choice for the near-term future. When the time comes for CI to migrate to a later version of PHP, I'm sure that the user base will make the transition. Unfortunately, I don't expect to see such a migration until PHP6 arrives on the scene with Unicode support and decent support for current and future W3C recommendations.

A serious migration to a future PHP version may not happen until Zend breaks from the past and realizes that OOP is here to stay. In comparison to other OOP languages, PHP5 simply sucks in many areas--too little, too late given the rapid pace of development in other languages. Beyond that, Zend needs to realize that those W3C recommendations are not going to disappear.

[eluser]ztinger[/eluser]
My take is that since that one of Code Igniter's Unique Value Proposition is it's php4 support, and than given that a number of users chose it precisely for that (like myself), support for php4 must continue.

[eluser]OwanH[/eluser]
I can understand the reasons behind wanting to dump support for PHP4 and the reasons for not wanting to dump support. Personally, I don't think it would be feasible to simply dump PHP4 support totally so soon. And it goes beyond just maintaining compatibility for PHP4 sites and apps. It is a very sensitive decision you see. Primarily because, in my opinion, I see it as a very critical business decision more so than a developmental shift. There are so many businesses, individuals, and organisations that have invested human, financial and technological resources in PHP4-compatible/PHP4-based development that such a move could really have a painful effect on many.

Having said all that I do agree that there needs to be more widespread support for PHP5, especially with the hosting providers. Too many of them have simply been toooooo slow in providing an adequate level of support for it and this has been one of the critical factors that have driven developers and other stakeholders away from building products around PHP5. Also I think it is important, from a developmental point of view, that developers really take a vested interest in ensuring they are well verse in PHP5 and develop more for PHP5 targets than PHP4. I know, I know, easier said than done right.

So in a nutshell here is what I would suggest:

1. I DO agree with the move that many open-source projects are making in only supporting PHP5 in future/upcoming realeases of their software. In situations such as this, there needs to be a strong catalyst that can trigger a change in other involved parties (i.e. hosting providers) for the better. I do not believe it is logical to have newer, stable, versions of a language released and then maintain only a widespread support for an older version after the new versions have been around for such a long time (3 years PHP5 been released, 3 years is a long time in computer years ya know )

2. Hosting providers who haven't done so as yet need to add support for PHP5 in their hosting packages, but should also maintain support for PHP4-driven sites and apps, at least until there's a stable release of PHP6. The reason behind the latter suggestion is because there are PHP4-driven sites and apps around, many of them, for which it would be more feasible/less costly for the owners/developers of these sites and apps to continue to maintain them for some time rather than be forced to re-engineer them to be PHP4-uncompatible at this time. One of the pluses of PHP, in my humble opinion, is it's sensitivity and committment to a community of users/developers/business owners. I'd hate to see PHP lose that sensitivity.

And that my 2 cents worth :-).

[eluser]ztinger[/eluser]
I agree.

furthermore, I think it's ok for the user base when someone suggest an improvement.

But don't suggest 'improvements' that are simply inconvenient for the rest.

The saying "Your rights end where mine begin" applies here too.

[eluser]Michael Ekoka[/eluser]
[quote author="esra" date="1183730592"]Impossible to gaurantee based on the simple fact that they won’t lose customers because of the glut of popular PHP4 open source applications bundled with hosting packages.[/quote]
Having a potential customer go to the competition because of lack of support is a loss. Having customers not renewing for the same reason is a loss. This week again one of our hosts had to write a long email to its customers requesting their patience, because some new features were coming by the end of the month, amongst which php5. Just a few months ago it didn't take me much to convince a host to install it for a client. So yes, hosts not supporting PHP5 are losing customers.


The main argument behind the continued use of php4 is that "many host don't support php5", how true is it nowadays? or "that's what the client is using", do clients really care what version of php you'll be using for new off the ground projects (CI is barely a year old)? I acknowledge that there are some legitimate constraints forcing the continued use of php4, but as I said in another thread relating to this, php is being a victim of its own popularity. Many people adopted it then because it was a simple language that required a low learning curve to get the job done. Today the language is trying to play catchup with its lack of features, but the community, which involves developers of various depths, is not following in unison.

[quote author="esra" date="1183730592"]
Why don’t those PHP5 frameworks exist now, given the long lead time since PHP5 was released? Symfony and Zend really don’t impress me as a OOP development foundation to base my future projects.
[/quote]
It's true that people include the language base as a criteria for the choice of framework they use. However I doubt that the fact that Zend or Symfony are less attractive options to some people than CI should be mainly attributed to language version. What pushes people away is the design and the degree of complexity. A framework is somewhat of a language in itself. How much more syntax, notions and convention can one bear to learn after learning php. Cake also is backward compatible with php4, but I find it a less attractive option than CI (or Zend).

CI has its own advantages. It is a light framework with a low learning curve, very good choice for minimal projects. However, frameworks like Zend and Symfony seem to be designed with experienced and somewhat demanding developers in mind. I'm convinced that after a couple of months tinkering with CI, these 2 frameworks will start being very appealing. Also, if you were to get a clue about architecture and OOP, I wouldn't cite CI as the reference and rather point you to these 2 frameworks that you say don't impress you.

[quote author="esra" date="1183730592"]
With an increase in the use of design patterns in PHP4-based CI applications and the use of Web 2.0 techniques, version 4 still has a lot of mileage left
[/quote]
From what I've seen across the different forums, I'd say that most people developing on top of CI and making use of design patterns, do so in php5. One cannot seriously talk about design patterns and willingly choose PHP4 over PHP5. Why would somebody go through such a pain. Pattern adaptations in PHP4 sometimes look like really ugly hacks. Sure PHP5 isn't perfect either, but it's a lot closer and makes many things so much simpler and clearer. Anyone serious about OOP or design patterns on PHP should move on, if they haven't done so yet. I have seen many interesting CI libraries from the community that make use of patterns and often they are "sorry! php5 only."


Now, I'm still at the stage where I'm going through the CI's source to see how things have been implemented. I've seen that in some instances the code forks when a hybrid adaptation is not appropriate (e.g. CI_Base class). Although my opinion about switching from php4 to php5 is unlikely to change, it is possible that after studying the code more carefully, I'd be more at ease that CI didn't sacrifice too much for the sake of backward compatibility.

[eluser]mumpitzmann[/eluser]
I think with the latest news from php.net the decision should be clear?

[eluser]Derek Jones[/eluser]
Don't forget that not only PHP, but also the vendors that provide server software to hosts have to decide to support or stop supporting a particular version before any ripples are made. As of last month, penetration for PHP5 was still floating around 15%. While it's popular among developers, end users do not care which version is being used, and certainly wouldn't like their choice of location for running an application being limited for political reasons that don't concern them. So, we have to think about these people too: the end users you might be writing a CodeIgniter based application for. I don't see PHP4 going away anytime soon, and I don't see the PHP Dev team as realistically being able to force that hand so quickly. MySQL hasn't been supporting version 3 for over a year, and we still encounter host after host running 3.23.x. - 10% or more.

Industries can influence one another, sure, but one industry (development) trying to force another (hosting) into a business decision rarely works out well for either party. They (the hosts) will tell their users in a heartbeat to choose other software that doesn't restrict what servers they can run on.

[eluser]ztinger[/eluser]
[quote author="Derek Jones" date="1184445066"]Don't forget that not only PHP, but also the vendors that provide server software to hosts have to decide to support or stop supporting a particular version before any ripples are made. As of last month, penetration for PHP5 was still floating around 15%. While it's popular among developers, end users do not care which version is being used, and certainly wouldn't like their choice of location for running an application being limited for political reasons that don't concern them. So, we have to think about these people too: the end users you might be writing a CodeIgniter based application for. I don't see PHP4 going away anytime soon, and I don't see the PHP Dev team as realistically being able to force that hand so quickly. MySQL hasn't been supporting version 3 for over a year, and we still encounter host after host running 3.23.x. - 10% or more.

Industries can influence one another, sure, but one industry (development) trying to force another (hosting) into a business decision rarely works out well for either party. They (the hosts) will tell their users in a heartbeat to choose other software that doesn't restrict what servers they can run on.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.