Is HTML5 just a pipe dream?

[eluser]Myles Wakeham[/eluser]
Yeh, I hear all the comments in the press from pundits who say "Avoid Flash, and just do everything in HTML5". Its a load of bollocks from what I can see right now. I've never met a pundit who could write a line of code in the first place, so this just seems to be a load of corporate BS coming from companies unwilling to accept Flash on their websites...

Now with that said, I decided to try and replace some Flash applets for displaying a RSS Feed content, and allowing a user to click on an item in the RSS list (its a Podcast feed of MP3 files) and then play it. I did find some jQuery code out there that comes close, but there's no doubt in my mind that HTML5 doesn't yet have the chops to compete in anyway with what a Flash applet can do on a website.

So what does everyone else think? Is it just BS in the press about dumping Flash and moving to HTML5? I mean, ok I get that Flash might have bugs, etc. But has any of the pundits ever tried to do this successfully?

Thoughts?

Myles

[eluser]WanWizard[/eluser]
HTML5 is (used as) a buzzword at the moment, meaning different things to different people. Like talking about "Clouds". ;-)

In the strict sense, HTML5 is just a markup language specification, which introduces new features like the &lt;video&gt;, &lt;audio&gt; and <canvas> tags. These, by themselfs, do nothing except being rendered by the browser. Like with Flash (using Actionscript), you need a powerful language to exploit these tags. HTML5 uses Javascript to archieve this.

Afaik, HTML5 is still a draft spec, so anything out there are the moment is based on drafts, incomplete browser implementations, and a javascript engine that is probably not adapted to use the full potential of HTML5.

Imho it's going to take a while before you can do *everything* in HMTL5/Javascript that you can do today in Flash. On the other hand, 90% of all Flash used today is used not for complex games, but for simple things like playing a video, creating some flashy graphics, or a fancy menu. Those things can be build with Javascript and the browser implementations today. As long as you don't want things to complicated (check out Youtube's HTML5 test site, it still needs Flash when it wants to insert ad's in a video).

[eluser]Myles Wakeham[/eluser]
[quote author="WanWizard" date="1275086831"]Imho it's going to take a while before you can do *everything* in HMTL5/Javascript that you can do today in Flash. On the other hand, 90% of all Flash used today is used not for complex games, but for simple things like playing a video, creating some flashy graphics, or a fancy menu. Those things can be build with Javascript and the browser implementations today. As long as you don't want things to complicated (check out Youtube's HTML5 test site, it still needs Flash when it wants to insert ad's in a video).[/quote]

This was my summation of it also. What is sad though is that you have mega-corporations like Apple out there acting like the USSR's Polit bureau and spewing anti-Flash information out there, refusing to let Flash run on their devices (which have been shipping for quite some time now) and stating that the answer to why a site won't render on an iPad or iPhone is because of Flash so "just re-code it in HTML5". That's what is driving me nuts, because its one thing to have a valid alternative and another entirely different thing to try and escape blame by diverting people's attention to mythical solutions that just won't work for relatively complex applications.

Oh well, we wait I guess...

Myles

[eluser]danmontgomery[/eluser]
I've never seen anyone from apple (or anyone, for that matter, but forum trolls) say "just re-code it in HTML5".

The main issue, as Steve pointed out in his "thoughts on flash" letter, are reliability, security and performance. While I don't agree with Apple on most things, I do agree with this. Flash is in no way open, to say that performance is OK would be generous (especially on mobile devices) and it is most definitely not reliable or secure. Even the android 2.2 (which, by all accounts is 3-4x faster than 2.1) previews with flash show that performance will be an issue.

This is Flash's only saving grace, a penetration rate higher than even javascript. And I think that's largely the cause of the backlash in this story. People want their youtubes and they want it now.

HTML has never, and will never, "work" for relatively complex applications. HTML is not a programming language, it's a markup language. It enables us as developers to deliver increasingly rich applications to an increasingly wide audience. It has never enabled us to create applications, and it never will (nor should it). That isn't it's purpose.

There is no arguing that as a technology, Flash is crap. Yes, it has enabled us to do things that we were unable to do before, and for that reason we have been willing to largely overlook it's shortcomings, but that won't last forever. "Escaping blame" has nothing to do with it. Flash is a proprietary software, and it is not the future of rich media. Anyone can recognize this, Apple has put their foot down on the issue (they are not the first, nor will they be the last), and it's for all of our good in the long term.

[eluser]Myles Wakeham[/eluser]
I hear what you are saying, but I think its just irresponsible to not have some option for supporting something as prevelant as Flash. Unlike your experience, I have constantly heard the likes of representatives of Apple stating that Flash wasn't being supported and recommending using HTML 5 in its place. I have clients that need functionality in web apps that just can't be done in HTML, Javascript, etc. (ie. biometric identification, signature capture, etc.) and Flash would provide such a solution. However since they want to do these sorts of things on mobile devices (ie. iPad) its becoming a repetitive scenario of me having to explain to them why I can't give them what they want on that device.

I guess I'm hopeful that Google's NativeClient comes out and I can write on that technology. But that's some time in the future and there is no guarantee it won't be boycotted by the same players when its released.

Myles

[eluser]skunkbad[/eluser]
If you know Web 2.0, CodeIgniter 3, and HTML5, you would be too awesome for yourself.

[eluser]SitesByJoe[/eluser]
HTML5/CSS3 (I'd lump them together at this point) is the Flash 4-5 of 10 years ago. I remember making EVERYTHING in flash since javascript was totally whacked across different browsers, well the 2-3 browsers used at the time.

Like Flash did then, HTML5/CSS3 promise an equal development playing field that will allow richer experience in a standard way.

Personally I don't really use flash much anymore. My own decisions came years ago from simple things like google not being able to properly spider the content etc.

I hope to see HTML5/CSS3 get totally integrated into all of today's browsers - sadly it's not gonna happen though as IE6/IE7/IE8 aren't going anywhere.... Ill keep my fingers crossed though!

[eluser]Myles Wakeham[/eluser]
Yeh, but the problem is that everyone thinks of Flash as just a graphics/animation/movie viewer thing. Its used for far more than that, and the problem is that not all aspects of where Flash has been used successfully convert over to HTML5. We have a small flash based RSS Feed reader/player on one of our apps and I can't do that in HTML5. This area in the middle where there is no alternative solution seems to be overlooked by those on high making these grand statements about Flash.

Myles

[eluser]Colin Williams[/eluser]
I see it as just one more link in the progressive enhancement chain.

Plain old HTML > HTML5 + CSS3 > Flash (if needed for older browsers, like IE)

All the new video players are being built on top of HTML5's video element and media API, with a backup to existing Flash players like JW Player, Flowplayer, etc.

I can't see myself rooting for Flash's future above HTML5's.