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At the risk of sounding dreadful, have a question about 'wp'

For seasoned product managers that have used wp 'wordpress': many developers over there always throw around some advice about avoiding the need to write join queries because its very overhead intensive.

To contrast with non-wp products, joins are use extensively and importantly. Why would they give out this advice to avoid them in wp? Could it be because from within wp, SQL table design and indexes aren't crafted carefully?

That sounds like bad advice. Unless the tables are large and badly indexed which I doubt for wp. WP tables are pretty well organised and created efficiently with good design.

Generally, joins are much faster than making separate multiple individual queries. I use joins constantly and they have never been the source of overhead problems or site slowdowns, and I doubt they ever are. The only thing I do now more than before is with multiple joins to make sure I am selecting only the data I need, rather than a blanket fetch all *. Although I have to go back occasionally to add a field I missed, I believe this is probably the best was to control my data sets.

Without joins, I cannot imagine how clunky and loopy my code would have to become.

You will get lots of advice from people, the art is in deciding if it is good advice or not.

Best wishes,


PS Perhaps the advice is out of context, although I cannot imagine a context where 'avoid Joins' would make any sense at all.

(07-22-2016, 09:13 AM)PaulD Wrote: ... Unless the tables are large and badly indexed which I doubt for wp. WP tables are pretty well organised and created efficiently with good design.

WordPress's database structure is a perfect example of how not to create/organize a database. It's as if they had never even heard of normalization. Throwing almost all of your content into a posts table and an options table is really not ideal. There's a reason why WordPress always runs like a dog, and if you check out a query log for a single page request you'll see why. It's been a while since I did it, but I think there's like 19 queries for a simple page load.

I've done a lot of work with WordPress, including making custom plugins, themes, widgets, custom post types, etc. If I can avoid using WordPress I do. It takes way less time to custom code a feature with a normal PHP framework than to fight WordPress.

I could not agree more. Recently I have done WP on a request from a customer and it was a nightmare! What's more, he chose this against my advice because he wanted to use Ontraport's WP plugins. What a PITA that was.

However, I think the idea of putting posts in a post table is fine, it is just that WP has since gone on to try to do all things and has abused its core systems so much that it has become a nightmare stroodly noodly coding experience. I have read some people saying things like 'Every site should be built on WP and this is why...' etc. For a blog, great, for anything else, would not go near it with a barge pole.

So let us all rejoice in hating WP! I certainly do. (And OS Commerce, another noodly nightmare).

I don't know why so much hate towards WP. I find it awesome for websites that only have the post concept: Blogs, a page with a menu and several content pages and so on... Plus if you are not too worried about beautiful code you can do let's say... one exotic feature in a website ultra fast.

Of course if you are trying to do a platform that does stuff that is not really like normal posts and pages you should stay out of WP.

That's like everything in life... I know people that use PrestaShop to do most websites since they are very used to it and they are fast. That shocks me more then using WP for example since Presta was designed to be an eCommerce platform.

Personally I prefer good CMS then using a PHP framework. The admin part is already good to go and the rest doing one way or another it will be done. I feel a PHP framework something sooo minimal that it makes us waste more time then save. Only recently I am doing 2 personal projects in CI because I feel no other CMS can do it good and the CMS part is not very important. Plus I am only using CI because I am using it with HMVC otherwise I would prefer to use a WP or a Presta.

Regarding the topic... I agree with PaulD, even out of context it doesn't make sense.

And I also agree you have to filter the "advices". For example... you have a loooooot of content over the internet comparing PHP to RoR which doesn't make any sense but it's a infinite stupidity loop and people are forced to put that title now on posts to give their opinion about PHP vs Ruby (I've actually seen this already lol).


You are right. I think I hate what I hear from WP advocates all the time, do every site, do shops, do magazines, do everything with WP.

WP itself does some things really, really well. Never heard of people using ecommerce platforms for non-ecommerce sites, that is almost as bad and quite funny. As for using a CMS, I did recently build a site with MODx, but it was in the end more of a hinderance than a help. Will not do it again.

But a framework is different than a CMS. A CMS is not a framework in my opinion. Wordpress is built on a framework, presta is built on a framework, it is within a framework that you build these things (usually). I have used HMVC but in all honesty I avoid it now. And as for speed, upload CI and it works out of the box. Set a view and you are away immediately into dealing with the HTML and CSS as if you were coding a pure html file. How it could be any faster I simply do not know.

Best wishes,


A lot of the sites that I work on have wp just sitting in the background never to be used again. most of these sites end up having me re-build their sites custom which I do using CodeIgniter.
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