I need your help winning a major battle for Codeigniter

[eluser]ralphschindler[/eluser]
[quote author="usmc" date="1247953307"]worst frameworks out there right now. I mean it is monumentally bad. If you have a framework that absolutely needs internal caching to function you have a serious problem.[/quote]

What kind of "internal caching" are you referring to? Are you talking about byte-code caching? Are you talking about application layer caching?

If its byte-code caching, I would say that 100% of PHP applications benefit from adding something like Zend Optimizer or APC regardless of their size and scope. Zend Framework has a lot of components that solve a lot of problems. The solutions are generally very configurable and always use-at-will. These tenants tend to lead to framework that has a large amount of code. The benefit here is that as a result, you have an immense library of tried and tested solutions that should ultimately save you hours upon hours of development time. Getting back to the byte-code cache, PHP is a runtime compile and execute language. As such, you can only be doing a service to yourself by introducing a byte-code cache (eliminating the compilation stage) to your stack.

[quote author="usmc" date="1247953307"]Basically there are three of us "consultants" teaching the 35+ web developers (who were RPG programmers last month) basic web development concepts ... like why in-line styling leads to a maintainability nightmare (not to mention the fact that the page loads slower etc.).[/quote]

Cheers to you for fighting the good fight. I have had the pleasure of working in the i5 environment, and know first hand that this is no easy task (I have done and am continually doing testing for ZF on iSeries servers). The developers you are teaching most familiar with two words that should send shivers down the spine of anyone that have spent most of their days in the modern web: "green screen".

[quote author="usmc" date="1247953307"]idea but I am not one of them. I am certain that we will get there but I would rather not use Zend framework for a year until it is inevitably ripped out and thrown away which would also harm the perception of PHP as a viable option for this company too.[/quote]

If your initial perception is that a certain technology would be "inevitably" ripped out after a year, you'd certainly be doing your client a disservice by using said technology in the first place. No one should go into the software business expecting to re-write a project from the ground up each and every year. That seems, to say the least, most unproductive.

But that said, I am curious why you would think it would be ripped out after 1 year in the first place. Zend Framework is a completely use-at-will architecture. You are free to use at little or as much as you'd like, thus solving the problem in the most efficient, effective, AND most maintainable way possible. We are dedicated to the long term viability of Zend Framework, and that in turn should give your client some comfort and satisfaction. Similarly, from what I know of EllisLabs, they too are also heavily invested in the long term viability of Code Ignitor as a development platform for PHP. That said, either direction you choose to go in, you would be doing a good service to your client.

[quote author="usmc" date="1247953307"]Where does that leave this post. Well I need your help. I need the help of the CI community now. If we lose this battle it will "embolden" (thank you Bush) the Zend/IBM machine and will allow them to continue pushing the falsehoods of Zend using this company as yet another "success" story.[/quote]

[quote author="usmc" date="1247953307"]If the Zend framework did anything right I would use it but as it stands now I feel dirty touching it. Its everything a framework shouldn't be.[/quote]

Where does that leave this post? I need YOUR help. I'd like to understand the experiences and expertise you have that frames your perspective of ZF. I'd like to understand what you mean by it being "everything a framework shouldn't be". We (like EllisLabs & CI) have a tremendous community that have consumed and contributed back to the project. BOTH projects are success stories in my book.

When it comes to your client, the success stories will come when you meet their goals and give them a worthwhile product (and more importantly in your case, an education). It will not be purely defined by any one aspect: the underlying technology, the actual contractor that delivered it, the team that developed it, the maintainability of the solution, or the day to day processes that keep the project going. The "Success Story" will be defined by the the sum of success in all aspects of the project.

What I urge you to do is put down some of your more ill-conceived notions and evaluate ZF for what it is. If at the end of the day you don't like our MVC implementation, don't use it. If you don't like our Forms solution, don't use it. If you simply don't like the fact that the paradigm we've chosen is complete object-orientation and those concepts are out of the reach of your client within the allotted project timeline, again ... don't use it.

If there are elements you DO like, use them- I cannot impress enough that ZF is completely use-at-will. If you want to use ZF in conjunction with CI as mentioned by elvix, do use it. Also, as elvix says, there is a massive amount of documentation both on our website (http://framework.zend.com) as well as The Google.

You can find help typically on IRC in #zftalk and on the Zend Framework mailing list among other countless websites.

Hope this helps,
Ralph Schindler
Software Engineer
Zend Framework Team