Looking for ways to display forms within HTML elements

[eluser]Xeoncross[/eluser]
[quote author="Colin Williams" date="1222007496"]If what you're saying is that it still looks distinct in the browser, I have a secret for you: Browsers have there own stylesheets.[/quote]

What do I care how a browser deals with markup? They could use the algorithm for gamma rays for all it matters. The point is browsers correctly show the DL elements without site-based CSS.

[quote author="Colin Williams" date="1222007496"]Also, the fact that you said a DL-based structure "looks" better already hints that you are thinking of these elements visually and not semantically. [/quote]

Semantics was built for design - not design for semantics. If I destroy a perfect browser-indestructible design because I am worried that I am nearing the "gray" area of a specific semantic ideal - then I am defeating the whole point.

Kind of like government. Government is for the people - not people for the the government. Of course Government and semantics are important - but they aren't the ultimate goal - people and designs that work are.

You know what also "looks" better without CSS rules? Table-based layouts.

Not true, the most beautiful (CSS-less) pages I have every seen do not use tables - or images for that matter

[eluser]Colin Williams[/eluser]
Ugh. Your grammar is as poor as your philosophy and understanding of semantics. Look up the word.

Semantics was built for design

I'm sorry you feel that way. Tell that to a search engine robot. Tell that to a visually impaired user.

Semantics add meaning to content. Meaning. Not presentation.

What do I care how a browser deals with markup?

Because you said it still looks good without CSS. Except it isn't without CSS. The browser has default CSS files.

The only reason I'm calling you out is because I don't want newer users mislead by your ignorant reasoning.

[eluser]Xeoncross[/eluser]
Anyway, back to the topic.

[quote author="Xeoncross" date="1221951475"]After searching the HTML elements I found that a fieldset/dl/dt/dd/label/input worked without CSS, with CSS, and almost matched the semantic meaning of the tags.

If someone knows of a element group that can top this - please let me know - that was the whole point of this post to begin with. [/quote]

[eluser]Colin Williams[/eluser]
Meaningfully classed DIVs and SPANs, which two of us have already suggested.

1. Works without CSS (Hint: Any valid HTML "works" without CSS).

2. Works with CSS. And the CSS is much more clear (.form-control {} .field-description {})

3. With meaningful classes, it perfectly matches semantic meaning, not almost.

[eluser]Xeoncross[/eluser]
[quote author="Colin Williams" date="1222040956"]
1. Works without CSS (Hint: Any valid HTML "works" without CSS).[/quote]

This isn't a joke. I would be happy to use DIVs and SPANs. However, they don't "work" without site-based CSS.

[eluser]Référencement Google[/eluser]
I don't know yet one site that "don't work" using DIV's and SPAN's, what are you trying to say exactly? Have ever tried to surf the web with a text browser like Lynx? Have you ever tried surf the web with a phone Wap browser that don't have any graphics and layout capabilities?

I second Colin in his arguments, you are totally missing the point on what is accessibility and semantics Xeoncross

[eluser]Xeoncross[/eluser]
Take a look at this screen shot to see what I mean.

DL's keep the form items lined up best without site-based CSS - which is the ONLY reason I chose them. When one of you finally show me the element that is better I will use it. I know they "kind of" break the meaning - but this is the real world and I only care about results.

I don't like what I have to do - but I have no choice. If I wasn't looking for a better option I would never have started this topic in the first place. %-P

[eluser]Pascal Kriete[/eluser]

I know they “kind of” break the meaning - but this is the real world and I only care about results.

So you're defining results by how the page looks without your own css applied?

The people who, for whatever reason, don't see the site's stylesheet couldn't possibly care any less about how they content is aligned on the page. The only reason why someone might disable css is bad design. When a page has low contrast or unintuitive content placement. Everyone else can't see the content - period. Placement matters only in the html chronological sense - what comes first in the source.

What screenreaders, and the people who use them, care about the most are clean semantics. That's the reason why you shouldn't use tables. Not because they're ugly, but because they would not properly describe a form. And the same concept applies here. A form isn't a list.

This is not a hard concept. Accessibility isn't defined by how good a page looks without a stylesheet. It's how semantically correct it is.

[eluser]Xeoncross[/eluser]
[quote author="Colin Williams" date="1221744239"]When you ask a user for their username, you aren't asking them to define the term 'username.' You are asking them to provide or supply their username. Clear difference. This is why there is a LABEL element for form controls, not a TERM element.[/quote]

You ask a user to define/supply/set the value of a given form element. That is what a form is about. I do not believe that using DL's around a form strays from the purpose of the tag. If you do then that fine with me.

The people who, for whatever reason, don’t see the site’s stylesheet couldn’t possibly care any less about how they content is aligned on the page.

That is not true. Because they use an inferior version of display do not mean that we should make it any harder on them to follow the content.

[eluser]Référencement Google[/eluser]
[quote author="Xeoncross" date="1222114095"]That is not true. Because they use an inferior version of display do not mean that we should make it any harder on them to follow the content.[/quote]

Once more time you are absolutely not clear with yourself on the difference between semantics and layout. If your goal is presenting a formed layout to users that don't have CSS enabled then use tables