codeigniter and Elislabs

#11
[eluser]wiredesignz[/eluser]
@keevitaja,

I have already heard too often what Sturgeon thinks.

All frameworks have to load classes/libraries/components before using them. Using spl_autoload is just another feature I can easily add to CodeIgniter if I need it.

Changing a framework by extending it to suit your personal development requirements is exactly what most developers should do.

So what else is your point?

#12
[eluser]Alucemet[/eluser]
[quote author="wiredesignz" date="1377166210"]I have already heard too often what Sturgeon thinks.[/quote]

He does have a nice last name, but it sounds like we feel the same way about what he thinks.

Re "old legacy framework", I just say that because if you look around the internet, you can see that is what many have labeled CI. Is it truly like the great grandfather of frameworks? Does it matter? I think CI is actually really nice, BUT if backwards compatibility could be broken the framework could benefit greatly from an major overhaul, and that's what I did for myself. Also, your use of the framework doesn't change the framework. I only say that because you brought it up.

My real point is not to criticize the framework, but to say, "Hey Ellislab, as long as your giving CI away, why not just change the license to something way less restrictive and really give it away?". Without changing the license, all they are doing is establishing a way for their business to retain credit for the initial framework. If I want to use the name CodeIgniter for my new framework, I can see where they might be concerned, but I think a lot of new frameworks could be derived from CodeIgniter, and the license prohibits them from doing that in the easiest/best way. For instance, I personally find it an annoyance to have a bunch of license mumbo-jumbo at the top of every damn file.

I don't have the intention of sharing my private framework with anyone else, but I also have no intention of breaking the rules and distributing it in a way that breaks the license. Hypothetically, if I wanted to distribute the framework but didn't want to comply with the CI license, in that case the license only hinders the PHP community from enjoying my work, because I cannot break the law. Do you see what I'm talking about? I'm talking about using the least restrictive license in order to have the greatest benefit to the PHP community.

Rather than playing a game with PHP devs, if Ellislab really wants to give away the framework, all they'd really have to do is change the license to MIT or BSD and write a blog post letting everyone know.

#13
[eluser]Phil Sturgeon[/eluser]
You don't have to be happy about what I think, but you guys can't just pretend that I am wrong.

[quote author="wiredesignz" date="1377166210"]I have already heard too often what Sturgeon thinks.

All frameworks have to load classes/libraries/components before using them. Using spl_autoload is just another feature I can easily add to CodeIgniter if I need it. [/quote]

Yes you can autoload your code but you cannot load core libraries, so pretending that is the case is a misnomer. You can "alwaysload" everything, but that is hardly ideal for performance. Always loading everything just in case you want to use it is not actually autoloading, so: no you cannot autoload in CodeIgniter - properly, without bootstrapping it yourself.

Plenty of beginners do not know how to do it themselves. Integrating Composer can certainly help, which would be a good step for CodeIgniter.

[quote author="wiredesignz" date="1377166210"]Changing a framework by extending it to suit your personal development requirements is exactly what most developers should do.[/quote]

Absolutely right, but the amount of extension having to be done to CodeIgniter to make it match any of the useful features that almost any modern framework can handle is almost mind-boggling.

How do you handle HTTP-verb based routing?

How do you handle SQLite schema?

How do you run your migrations from the command line?

Oh wait, you can't. At all.

[quote author="wiredesignz" date="1377166210"]So what else is your point?[/quote]

What is yours? Is your point that CodeIgniter is still absolutely fine, has no issues, and should remain the same as it is? Because that is the line of thinking that lead to it stagnating for the last 5 years.

You can still use it, and it gets things done, but PHP 5.3 is on the way out so why the hell you would pick a 5.2 based system when so many considerably more powerful systems are now available is truly mind-boggling.

#14
[eluser]ivantcholakov[/eluser]
@Alucemet

Maybe, the only way for ending this agony of CodeIgniter is writing its clone. Since a month or two I think about a framework that would be compatible with CodeIgniter's API, but totally rewritten and released under the MIT license. There is a framework FuelPHP (v.2 is to come the next year) that in fact is what CodeIgniter should have been these days. Maybe using its components for recreation CodeIgniter's API would not be so hard. Or (a slightly different approach) some kind of package for CodeIgniter compatibility mode could be created for an existing MIT-licensed framework.

Why do I consider this?
1. I have no sentiment to CodeIgniter framework, but I've invested too much time on it. Switching my code to other framework is not an option for me.
2. It would be sad dumping so a lot of third-part code created for CodeIgniter.
3. EllisLabs is impredictable.

Alucemet, you have some experience, is such an idea doable, realistic?

#15
[eluser]CroNiX[/eluser]
@ivantcholakov That's what Kohana is. A more modern rewrite of CI back when CI was still messing with PHP4 and some people wanted to move on to PHP5.

#16
[eluser]ivantcholakov[/eluser]
@CroNiX

I mean 100% compatibility with CodeIgniter's API, a full emulation. Kohana is, well, yet another PHP framework.

#17
[eluser]Phil Sturgeon[/eluser]
The API is the issue.

Creating a version of CodeIgniter which takes advantage of modern functionality would realistically involve a rewrite, turning CodeIgniter into "yet another framework".

Kohana was an attempt to rewrite CodeIgniter for 5.2.

FuelPHP was an attempt to rewrite CodeIgniter for 5.3.

Laravel was an attempt to rewrite CodeIgniter and FuelPHP for 5.3 and Composer, leveraging popular standards.

CodeIgniter is still exactly what it was before Kohana, FuelPHP or Laravel happened.

Make your own decisions, but you can't have progress without change, and the change has already happened elsewhere.

#18
[eluser]the_unforgiven[/eluser]
After reading all posts, I still like Codeigniter but has Sturgeon says we have to move with the times and change for a better place, if that's the right wording! CI is still stable and usable for small/medium project but the likes of Laravel from what I've seen and toyed with so far Laravel as much much more to offer, like API development use of composer which again make life easier and quicker.

I did a test with the two frameworks to produce a quick to do list and after timing each application laravel came out top cutting development time by 40% and saving lines of code in process by using the command line, which I must say I was never a fan but slowly becoming to it.

Just my opinion, not offense and upset to anyone and just pointing out my findings the last week or so.

#19
[eluser]pettersolberg[/eluser]
I really appreciate the work and experience of many you, especially Phil's.
But opposite to the_unforgiven my take on Laravel 4 had no happy ending. Maybe I'm just too narrowed or to lazy - in CI you have everything from one vendor, in one place, the documentation ties it all together.
I used Laravel 4, to bootstrap a simple project but the dependencies on some seemingly simple libraries caused Compser to throw a lot of files into the project tree. I just couldn't wrap my head around it. Not to mention the search for documentation - scatterred around on vendor's sites.
I admit: CI corrupted my mind. I strive after finding a 'modern' (not necessarily) PHP framework and always tend to CI related comparisons. CI's simplicity can be a bad thing, though.
Any help from you guys, or do a need a local shrink? ;]


#20
[eluser]Yettie[/eluser]
Why don't you make the world better and start something new with your brilliant brains and all your knowledge? You know so much about CI and php. I think, there are others who will help you coding, if you teach them how to code proper for a new MVC.


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