Poll: Should we include FlySystem?
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Yes - bundle that bad boy in
41.18%
14 41.18%
No - keep our stuff simpler
58.82%
20 58.82%
Total 34 vote(s) 100%
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Should we integrate Flysystem

#11
I would like to vote YES, but only for the minimum required to solve/replace the 3 helpers (file, directory, and path) mentioned by Killishan.
And allow to pull in any other adapter if needed with composer or manual download.
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#12
What are the pillars of the CodeIgniter 4? Simplicity, easy of use, speed? Then the answer is no.

What helpers should be? Sets of functions for helping with common things or (bloated) objects whose trying to cover everything? I think sets of functions, so the answer is no again.

I think it would be bad if some helpers will be functions and another objects. If all helpers will be objects, the question is why? Do we really need it?

I agree with putting together file, directory and path helpers, but why putting there advanced features? There are advanced libraries for date for example with almost an infinite possibilities, which 99 % of developers will never use. Why to not include them too? Etc., etc., etc... Where it will ends?

So once again, we should make a vision and try to see problem from the higher perspective. The decisions should be easier that way.
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#13
Codeigniter simplicity and easy of use because they offer simple solution to solve common problem. CI4 is completely rewritten and adapted more php functionality. If dev team could write a better code and organized it well, i'm sure the usage will be simple and not too complex. The code itself might be to complex, but hope not the usage. How many of us use frameworks but it does not enforce us to know how it really works(just read docs). Don't worry, dev team is good, they will not burden us to undestand how they do their jobs.
Keep calm.
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#14
(08-02-2016, 11:36 PM)Muzikant Wrote: So once again, we should make a vision and try to see problem from the higher perspective. The decisions should be easier that way.

Good point.
Do you want to write tests for your apps? Our book, CodeIgniter Testing Guide would help you.
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#15
I voted no, as I don't require it, and I believe most users wouldn't either. But in the end this is one question that community can't answer, since its the developers who do the heavy lifting. Building it in the core and documenting its feature is no small task.
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#16
I don't know about anyone else, but it kind of worries me this was even considered. It goes against everything CI has been built to be.
Codeigniter is simply one of the tools you need to learn to be a successful developer. Always add more tools to your coding arsenal!
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#17
(08-03-2016, 09:06 AM)albertleao Wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but it kind of worries me this was even considered. It goes against everything CI has been built to be.

I'm curious - why do you feel that way? And what do see CI having been built to be?
Support Development  • Practical CodeIgniter 3  •
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#18
One of the hallmarks of Codeigniter has been that its not dependent on any third party code. What happens when there is bug in the third party code? Its a big problem because unless the developer fixes it immediately the community will be forced to create a fork. Codeigniter is a great platform because its very stable. Releases of Codeigniter are in production for years. The reality is that most third party libraries are abandoned, OR they put their energy into the next version - with a bunch of breaking changes that will no longer be compatible with Codeigniter 4.

Otherwise I want to push back on some of the comments about Helpers. Helpers are completely optional. No one forces anyone to use Helpers. If they are an advanced coder they are not going to like the helpers or use them because they have their own helpers and ideas about how that kind of functionality should be accomplished. So people posting about which helpers they like or do not like is pointless. Its a big community, there are thousands and thousands of people using codeigniter, and they don't post on this bulletin board.

Helpers are for beginning and intermediate programers. They 'help' developers get an application or website built faster. They are not supposed to be teaching tools for how to code or to demonstrate the latest hotness. They are there to help with common tasks that many websites or applications will need. For someone to put forward a vision of Codeigniter 4 having less features because they personally do not like the code in a helper or they don't personally use it is just not relevant to the larger community of users. As long as a Helper is not a security risk, is optional, and does a job that is needed for web or application development - it should be included in the Codeigniter framework.
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#19
(08-03-2016, 09:50 AM)cartalot Wrote: One of the hallmarks of Codeigniter has been that its not dependent on any third party code. What happens when there is bug in the third party code? Its a big problem because unless the developer fixes it immediately the community will be forced to create a fork. Codeigniter is a great platform because its very stable. Releases of Codeigniter are in production for years. The reality is that most third party libraries are abandoned, OR they put their energy into the next version - with a bunch of breaking changes that will no longer be compatible with Codeigniter 4.

That's probably the best argument I could see. Though I would say the hallmark wasn't that it didn't depend on third-party code, but that you had a single download and you're good. We'll still have that either way.

To be honest, we've already using two third-party packages. And it's definitely not something we do lightly. The first is Kint, an awesome debugging tool - that only applies in the dev environment and if there's a bug, then it's not that critical if we can't get it fixed. The other is Zend Escaper because it's written by some of the most knowledgeable people in the business when it comes to safely escaping output. And it's backed by Zend which will be around a while, I think. Smile

There's always a fine-line between keeping it in-house, and the potential insanity of rebuilding the wheel just to say we did.

Looks like the "No" group is winning, so we don't have to worry about it this time around. Just when reading through all of them the other day it was sounding like a more OO-approach might be in order, which would mean do it like everything else and use an interface so people could extend, which made it sound like a potential rewrite of FlySystem. Hence the post.
Support Development  • Practical CodeIgniter 3  •
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#20
(08-03-2016, 09:22 AM)kilishan Wrote:
(08-03-2016, 09:06 AM)albertleao Wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but it kind of worries me this was even considered. It goes against everything CI has been built to be.

I'm curious - why do you feel that way? And what do see CI having been built to be?

I've always seen CI as a framework with the absolute basics to get you going.. I see it as a framework that lies between a Silex/Slim and a Laravel/Cake. If I wanted a framework that has a bunch of stuff already built in and is more opinionated, I'd be using Laravel. There I'd get all the bells and whistles with auth, queues, etc, etc.

Just as it says on the landing page:

"CodeIgniter is a powerful PHP framework with a very small footprint, built for developers who need a simple and elegant toolkit to create full-featured web applications."

As soon as you start adding 3rd party tools, it's no longer 'simple' because you are depending on a 3rd party to keep the code well designed as well. And with the popularity of Composer and Packagist, there should be no reason someone can't implement FlySystem fairly quickly on their own.

Added:
At the end of the day, if you're going to start adding 3rd party packages, we're just slowly moving towards the more 'bloated' frameworks around. While there is nothing wrong with that, I feel that CI would lose a competitive edge. I'd almost be more inclined to have CI have all of its libraries, helpers, and such be packages that we could pull into whatever application we use.
Codeigniter is simply one of the tools you need to learn to be a successful developer. Always add more tools to your coding arsenal!
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